Warrior Blocking Mechanics: Posting to Beta Forums

[moduspwnens]

Thought I'd make the post here before transferring it over to the beta forums. The UI is much nicer here and less buggy.

EDIT: Posted here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&sid=2000

Warriors block more effectively than Paladins

After seeing no changes to address this concern in the last few builds, I'm making this post to show that, through block scaling, Warriors often find themselves blocking more damage than Paladins given the same gear, and actually benefit more from the Paladin Tier armor than Paladins do.

Abilties

Paladin
Holy Shield
Versus single targets, this skill offers the highest uptime. Increases chance to block by 30%.

Redoubt
Versus single targets, this skill generally only accounts for 3.5%-4.5% block, making it worse than Shield Specialization, a passive 5% block available to all Warriors. However, it is a unique flavor distinction and scales with multiple attackers. It has its benefits and downside.

Shield Specialization / New Redoubt
Increases block value by 30%.

Warrior
Shield Block
Increases chance to block by 100% and block value by 100% for ten out of every 40 seconds. It's a powerful skill, but it's worth noting that it's not the same as doubling your block value, as percentage-based block value modifiers don't work that way.

Critical Block
Gives a 30% chance to block for double. This is applied after all block modifiers.

Shield Specialization
Increases chance to block by 5% flat.

Improved Shield Block
Increases block value by 30%.

The Problem
The problem is that Warrior blocks scale better. With a 30% chance to block for double, and 100% increased block value and guaranteed blocks 25% of the time, they're just scaling too well. The strength of the Paladin blocking mechanic is more, smaller blocks. However, that leads to several issues:

Redoubt doesn't apply as well
If the Paladin's strength lies in having a 100% uptime 30% block chance, and Redoubt procs offer another 30%, you're guaranteed to be wasting some block chance. There's never a time with single targets that you can use 60% extra block. This isn't a huge deal, but it means that as your gear improves and you fill more of the attack table, Redoubt gets less and less effective to the point that it becomes useless when you fill the attack table.

Redoubt makes block rating on gear less valuable
With 40% avoidance and 10% block being the minimum avoidance values (just enough defense to be uncrittable by raid bosses and nothing else), Redoubt will always offer more than enough applicable block chance versus single targets. This means that any time Redoubt procs while tanking a single target, any block rating you have on your gear serves no purpose. This is a big deal, since Redoubt lasts ten seconds and has a 10% chance to proc on every hit.

As avoidance increases, Holy Shield becomes less valuable
The Paladin's advantage, as stated, is that he blocks more often for less damage. However, what happens when avoidance and block from gear and buffs starts to fill the attack table to the point that Holy Shield offers less than 30% effective chance to block? The Warrior continues to get blocks with 100% increased block value, and occasionally block for double, but the Paladin just blocks fewer and fewer times. Holy Shield scales inversely with gear as soon as the tank reaches 70% avoidance and block when fully buffed without it.

Shield Block is more effective
The 100% increased chance to block helps much more at lower gear levels, but the 100% increased block value gets better at higher gear levels. As gear improves, the warrior will likely be gaining block value, and that block value will always be increased by 100% for every ten out of 40 seconds. Holy Shield will also block for more with more block value, but as gear gets better, so do passive avoidance and block levels, which makes Holy Shield worse and worse.

Critical Block has excellent scaling
Firstly, Critical Block doesn't affect the attack table (like Holy Shield and Redoubt do), so while it does scale with more blocks and block value, its increases will (versus hard hitters) never be wasted. It also scales on the modifiers Warriors have. It doesn't just double the block value, it also doubles the block value gained from Shield Mastery and even the block value gained from Shield Block. This is a huge advantage! Each and every time a Paladin blocks, he blocks for 1.3x his block value (30% block value from talents), because he has no other block value modifying abilities. 30% of the time when Shield Block isn't up, a Warrior blocks for 2.6x his block value, and when a Warrior blocks critically during Shield Block, he blocks for 4.6x his block value! That's over 3 1/2 blocks from a Paladin! From this, it's clear that a Warrior doesn't have to block nearly as many times as a Paladin to mitigate as much or more damage.

Block rating and value benefit Warriors more than Paladins
This is why the Paladin tier gear seems to benefit Warriors more than Paladins. Firstly, any time Redoubt procs, all extra block rating is useless versus single targets. Second, the only scaling Paladins have on their blocks is mirrored by Warriors through talents (30%). Warriors also have Shield Block's modifier and Critical Blocks, which get more out of the same block value from gear. Last, the Paladin's advantage is that he's filling more of the attack table over the fight. One percent chance to block for a Paladin is a one percent chance to block for 1.3x his block value. For a Warrior, it's 0.7% chance to block for 1.3x his block value, and 0.3% chance to block for 2.6x his block value. So, not only is block rating more valuable to a Warrior, but it also applies 75% of the time regardless of gear level, while block rating only applies to Paladins while Redoubt isn't up at most gear levels, and not at all once Holy Shield fills the attack table.

Glyph of Blocking
This may be nothing, but a glyph has been datamined for Warriors that effectively increases block value by 10% and no equivalent has been found for Paladins. Since it hasn't actually been implemented yet, there's no real reason to flip over this, though.

Versus Multiple Mobs, Warriors Still Block Well
This is a big change over live. Since Holy Shield has limited charges and a cooldown, and Shield Block, Critical Block, and an increased 5% block chance don't, Warrior mitigation even versus multiple mobs now rivals that of Paladins. Redoubt helps some, but the gap is much much closer currently in Beta.

Why This is a Problem
Paladins are not equal but different
I recently read a quote from one of the CMs stating that we're within 1-2% of Warriors in most areas, but there are still several factors to address. While this thread pertains specifically to blocking, there's also the difference in stats between a libram and ranged weapon, the health disparity now that Paladin stamina scaling was nerfed, the lack of gimmick tools (thanks for the interrupt, but Spell Reflect, Disarm, a Fear break, tanking through silences), the difference in flat DR from RF and DS, the problems with Ardent Defender, and the higher avoidance on tier gear. The superior Warrior blocking mechanic hasn't been discussed too deeply otherwise, but I wanted to make it clear that it is not the case that Paladins are clearly superior at blocking, so that it's not mentioned as such during class balancing.

This was the Paladin flavor difference / niche
Niches might not be the right word, but judging by the stats on our tier gear, it seems clear that Warriors are supposed to be the "avoidance tank," while Paladins are supposed to be the "block tank." Obviously if this is the case, it shouldn't even be questionable that Warriors block as much as Paladins, especially considering that avoidance reduces damage much more. We're effectively in the situation now that Warriors have more health, have more avoidance, block for the same or more, and Paladin tools scale inversely with gear. That's why this is a big issue.

Favorable Changes
Reverse Redoubt
When MMOChampion first reported the recent change to Redoubt, it was reported as "Damaging melee and ranged attacks have a 10/20/30% chance to increase block chance by 10%". It ends up this was a mistake and it was just a merge of Redoubt and Shield Specialization (a good change), but this would be a helpful change. This would mean Redoubt would have a higher uptime but increase block chance by a less. It would still scale inversely, and it wouldn't fix everything, but it would be a favorable change. It would be a nerf to multi-mob tanking, though, so this would be a good spot for a Glyph, if it's not going to take the place of something more useful.

Redoubt should increase Block Value
As mentioned above, one of the reasons Critical Block is so powerful is that it doesn't affect the attack table, so it can never be wasted (versus hard hitters). It would still be in the flavor of Paladins to keep Redoubt as a "reactive" ability, but increase block value instead of block chance. This might also be a good spot for a glyph.

Paladins should have Critical Block, not Warriors
Meh, you probably don't want to nerf one of their good skills, but it'd be an easy fix. It's also reactive, so it wouldn't be a stretch flavor-wise. In order to not anger too many Warriors, perhaps buff Shield Block to increase block value by 200%. This would also fit with the "mini Shield Wall" idea.

Run Your Own Simulations
It's not written in the best language and isn't terribly fast, but you can run different simulations based on current beta mechanics here:

http://www.bennlinger.com/tanksimulator

It sums up how many blocks Redoubt is worth given different gear values, and sums up Effective Blocks. If you toggle "Show Effective Blocks," it'll show how much each block is worth in relation to your block value and sums up, on average, how many "effective blocks" the tank gets for each damaging swing. You can report any issues with it here:
http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... hp?t=12032

[moduspwnens]

Meh, that's a lot of text. I didn't want to use formatting the WoW Forums don't have. I think I will anyway.

Let me know if you have any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas (perhaps even on how to format it better). I'll post it up on the beta forums in a bit.

[majiben]

Nice write up. Just one thing to help you clean it up. Under Block rating and value benefit Warriors more than Paladins you say that warriors have a .7% chance for 1.3 BV and a .3% chance for 2.6 BV. Either change those to .3 and .7 or 30% and 70%.

Did you have a chance to see the numbers from this thread?

[Xequecal]

I strongly disagree that the Paladin blocking mechanics are worse. Spike damage kills tanks, not average damage. Even if the average Warrior block is somewhat higher, there is still much more value from guaranteeing that every hit will be blocked, rather than randomly double blocking.

Also, they just put in diminishing returns on avoidance. Pushing Holy Shield off the combat table isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

[WATERBOYsh]

I strongly disagree that the Paladin blocking mechanics are worse. Spike damage kills tanks, not average damage. Even if the average Warrior block is somewhat higher, there is still much more value from guaranteeing that every hit will be blocked, rather than randomly double blocking.

Also, they just put in diminishing returns on avoidance. Pushing Holy Shield off the combat table isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

if a paladin takes more average damage/sec, the healers have to average more heals/sec... which means they use more mana/sec... and when they run out of mana that means more deaths/sec

yes, spike damage can be very bad, and is usually responsible for deaths, but think about longer fights where a small difference in average damage means a total difference of a lot...

This doesn't even take into account the fact we have less avoidance which means more spikey damage for us even if warriors don't block every attack and we do. Or I guess you could argue that it's less spikey for us because where a warrior might dodge/dodge/hit we might block/dodge/block... but with warriors blocking just as much as more, they just avoided more damage than we did.

[moduspwnens]

Nice write up. Just one thing to help you clean it up. Under Block rating and value benefit Warriors more than Paladins you say that warriors have a .7% chance for 1.3 BV and a .3% chance for 2.6 BV. Either change those to .3 and .7 or 30% and 70%.

For that part, I was specifically referring to only 1% block. For Paladins, that's what it is, but for Warriors, it's 0.7% to block normally, and 0.3% chance to block critically. Right?

Did you have a chance to see the numbers from this thread?

Yes, Garath and I have been crunching these numbers for a little while, and have come to similar conclusions.

[majiben]

Never mind I understand now. You might want to use the same syntax throughout your text. I suggest changing the phrase " for one percent" to "for 1%" so no other readers have similar confusion.

[Arthaal]

With crushes eliminated, spike damage isn't an issue in the way it was in TBC since, assuming uncrittability (which is still going to be required for raid level encounters), the biggest hits on the attack table are going to be for X value, while the blocked hits are going to be for X - 1-1.5k (standard blocks), with critical blocks, shield block blocks, etc. further reducing that. In that sense, spike damage now, at worst, is talking about a hit doing 1.5k more damage than a blocked it. Hardly the 5k difference a crush used to be and even less noticeable with larger health pools at 80.

[Mavrix]

I strongly disagree that the Paladin blocking mechanics are worse. Spike damage kills tanks, not average damage. Even if the average Warrior block is somewhat higher, there is still much more value from guaranteeing that every hit will be blocked, rather than randomly double blocking.

Also, they just put in diminishing returns on avoidance. Pushing Holy Shield off the combat table isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

It is really very difficult to disagree with actual data from a well done study even if you "feel" the results are contrary to what should be the case.

However, as you say, spike damage is what kills tanks. Brutallus being an extreme example, but blocking his attacks won't save you. Avoiding them completely will or I guess (if you were a warrior and could critically block with shield block up you might be able to block enough of one hit to make a difference?, but our block sure won't).

[Xequecal]

I strongly disagree that the Paladin blocking mechanics are worse. Spike damage kills tanks, not average damage. Even if the average Warrior block is somewhat higher, there is still much more value from guaranteeing that every hit will be blocked, rather than randomly double blocking.

Also, they just put in diminishing returns on avoidance. Pushing Holy Shield off the combat table isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

if a paladin takes more average damage/sec, the healers have to average more heals/sec... which means they use more mana/sec... and when they run out of mana that means more deaths/sec

yes, spike damage can be very bad, and is usually responsible for deaths, but think about longer fights where a small difference in average damage means a total difference of a lot...

With the removal of downranking, MT healers have a choice between Big Heal and reactive healing or Small Heal and spamming. Neither of these strategies save any mana if the average damage taken increases or decreases slightly. You still have to cast your Big Heal when the tank gets hit, or keep on chaincasting your Small Heal.

[Worldie]

My PoV on the subject is that either Shield Block or Critical Block must be removed from Warriors and given to Paladin.

Merging a block increase into Holy Shield wouldn't be a bad thing, honestly.

[Jasari]

I strongly disagree that the Paladin blocking mechanics are worse. Spike damage kills tanks, not average damage. Even if the average Warrior block is somewhat higher, there is still much more value from guaranteeing that every hit will be blocked, rather than randomly double blocking.

Also, they just put in diminishing returns on avoidance. Pushing Holy Shield off the combat table isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

if a paladin takes more average damage/sec, the healers have to average more heals/sec... which means they use more mana/sec... and when they run out of mana that means more deaths/sec

yes, spike damage can be very bad, and is usually responsible for deaths, but think about longer fights where a small difference in average damage means a total difference of a lot...

This doesn't even take into account the fact we have less avoidance which means more spikey damage for us even if warriors don't block every attack and we do. Or I guess you could argue that it's less spikey for us because where a warrior might dodge/dodge/hit we might block/dodge/block... but with warriors blocking just as much as more, they just avoided more damage than we did.

Mana is appearing to be an almost non-issue in wotlk. Having a tank take slightly more damage overall but less spikey damage won't take a noticeable toll on healer's mana. Spike damage on the other hand could force healers to blow CDs which is really a bigger cost than anything else.

While I agree, it'd be nice to be equal to warrior in terms of avoidance and health, I'm happy with HS vs warrior shield block.

[Macha]

I strongly disagree that the Paladin blocking mechanics are worse. Spike damage kills tanks, not average damage. Even if the average Warrior block is somewhat higher, there is still much more value from guaranteeing that every hit will be blocked, rather than randomly double blocking.

Also, they just put in diminishing returns on avoidance. Pushing Holy Shield off the combat table isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

Except that the "spikes" warriors will get here are, oh, as high as 1k-1.5k, which is mitigated when they actually block and reduce damage greatly. Remember that SB not up does not mean warriors do not block. Warriors have a passive 5% Block on top of their normal block by def/rating.

This is further mitigated when the boss has periods of higher damage, because if the warriors saves his SB for these times, he can effectively *smoothe* out the damage, while we could not. SB is effectively a superior mechanic, because it is highly flexible. 1.5k "spikes" do not kill tanks. 2.8k(noncrit) lower on each hit during mini-enrages does save tanks.


I have to agree to Worldi here. Critical Block really should have been a Paladin ability.

An alternative would indeed be redoubt - 10-30% chance to increase BV. Has 5 stacks, each hit eats a stack, each stack gives 20% bv. Just an example.


Edit: Great writeup, Modus. I did agree with everything you wrote, but in this topic, I just have to nod to all you say(except to a single typo that, I believe, was already mentioned)

[Mavrix]

My PoV on the subject is that either Shield Block or Critical Block must be removed from Warriors and given to Paladin.

Merging a block increase into Holy Shield wouldn't be a bad thing, honestly.

I still think they can adequately buff us without nerfing warriors. Although some of both may be in order depending on where the other tank classes are sitting in the equation.

[Arthaal]

Mana is appearing to be an almost non-issue in wotlk. Having a tank take slightly more damage overall but less spikey damage won't take a noticeable toll on healer's mana. Spike damage on the other hand could force healers to blow CDs which is really a bigger cost than anything else.

But developers have said this isn't something they are happy about and Replenishment effects were halved as a result. I think mana needs to be an issue for most of the new healing abilities to function.