WotLK Beta Testing Thread

[Rhî]

I have two questions or better, one question for two abilities.

Hammer of the Righteous
6% of base mana
5 yd range
Instant cast
6 sec cooldown
Requires One-Handed Melee Weapon
Hammer the current target and up to 2 additional nearby targets, causing 100% of weapon damage as Holy damage. This ability causes high threat.

Shield of Righteousness
6% of base mana
5 yd range
Instant cast
6 sec cooldown
Requires Shields
Slam the target with your shield, causing Holy damage equal to 200% of your block value. This spell causes a high amount of threat.

How many is a high amount of threat?

[Witchaven]

-- Does hammer of the righteous proc seals? No

Seeing as Hotr hits 4 targets, if you judge several targets, can you refresh the judgements on all of them with Hotr?


Send in your own question folks, let's get this testing started!

I've been doing some testing and found that HotR DOES proc Seals. When using Seal of Wisdom/Light and tanking multiple mobs, you see this very clearly with floating combat text.
Currently in Beta, Melee attacks are not refreshing Judgements so there is no way to tell if it refreshes Judgements or not.

[Nich]

Sorry if this has been raised already, I'm not able to keep up properly while traveling:

Are there plans to address the scaling of seals? I read somewhere/ran some numbers to verify, and it looked like SoV was the best DPS seal for ret, then SoR, and SoC/SoB coming a clear last. If they're tweaked, it'll likely affect us.



(edit: here's the numbers I ran, pulling formulae from wotlk.wowhead pages. I don't know how reliable the judgement damages are, I have a suspicion they use the old formula, and not the new one with JoW/JoL/JoJ having base damage + modifiers from the seals. It's also possible that the math is FUBAR because I've done my best to avoid running numbers since I left uni)


SoC:
0.7 (MW)
~1120, 45% (proc rate? assuming ppm system still) => ~504 (avg dmg per swing)

JoC:
0.3 (MW) + 0.36 (AP) + 0.58 (SP)
~480 + 1440 + 696 = 2606

SoB:
0.35 (MW)
~560

JoB:
0.45 (MW) + 0.36 (AP) + 0.58 (SP)
~720 + 1440 + 696 = 2856

SoR: (weapon speed * 0.08 (AP)
wep.speed ( 0.05 (AP) + 0.10 (SP))
~3.8 ( 200 + 120) = 1216 (320 dps)

JoR:
1 + 0.45 (AP) + 0.73 (SP)
~1 + 1800 + 876 = 2677

SoV: (0.172 (AP) * 5 stacks [per dot] => 0.86 (AP) per dot => 0.28667 (AP) dps
6 ticks (0.34 (SP) + 0.07 (AP)) * 5 stacks
~5 (408 + 280) = 5 (688) = 3440 / tick (1146 dps)
^case in point of my bad math: transcription error ledaing to crazy inflated numbers
6 ticks * 5 stack (0.034 (SP) + 0.07 (AP))
~6 (5 (40.8 + 280))
~ 6 ticks, 1604 per tick (534.6 dps)
(=> (0.0802 (AP) * 5 stacks [per dot] => 0.401 (AP) per dot => 0.13366 (AP) dps)

JoV:
(1 + 0.58 (SP) + 0.36 (AP)) * 1.5 (5 stacks)
~(1 + 696 + 1440) 1.5 = 1.5 ( 2137) = 3205.5



(assuming what i remember to be basic numbers for a raid-buffed retadin)

4k ap + 1200 SP
mw = 1600
crit% = 45?

[Proudfoot]

Are there plans to address the scaling of seals? I read somewhere/ran some numbers to verify, and it looked like SoV was the best DPS seal for ret, then SoR, and SoC/SoB coming a clear last.

I'm very interested in this topic as well. Can someone do some tests?

(assuming what i remember to be basic numbers for a raid-buffed retadin)

4k ap + 1200 SP
mw = 1600
crit% = 45?

Are you going for current ret paladin numbers or with Sheath of Light?

Current raid buffed I'm at

~3k atk pwr, no SP
mw??
Crit% = 41%

With talent changes

~3.2k atk pwr, 960 SP
mw (what is this? melee weapon?)
Crit% = 41%

Even with your breakdown of the math it's hard to tell what the DPS looks like on SoC and SoB.

[Modal]

New question:

With hit rating & spell hit rating merged into one stat, has the conversion rate into actual % chance to hit also been merged? Or does the merged hit rating increase chance to hit with melee/ranged attacks at a different (presumably slower) rate than it increases chance to hit with spells?

[Modal]

-- Which of our abilities count as spells, and therefore have their GCDs shortened by haste?

Here's a GC quote that doesn't directly answer this question, but appears to be relevant:

The technical definition of a spell is anything that can't be dodged or parried.

Source: https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=8765570499&sid=2000

[Nich]

(assuming what i remember to be basic numbers for a raid-buffed retadin)

4k ap + 1200 SP
mw = 1600
crit% = 45?

Are you going for current ret paladin numbers or with Sheath of Light?

Current raid buffed I'm at

~3k atk pwr, no SP
mw??
Crit% = 41%

With talent changes

~3.2k atk pwr, 960 SP
mw (what is this? melee weapon?)
Crit% = 41%

Even with your breakdown of the math it's hard to tell what the DPS looks like on SoC and SoB.

I vaguely remember some current melee dps hitting 4k raid-buffed AP now, so I took that as a rough number, derived the SP from it, etc. I was assuming things like shout, imp blessing, full enh hhaman buffs in the melee group, et al.

Crit% was pretty much a guess, and MW was the melee damage one of my guild's ret pals does with his T6 weapon (I think he uses torch) and AP taken into account, ie how hard he hits for for the purposes of SoC/SoB procs.

Numbers will be changing (presumably up) come raid buffs and gear at level 80, but I figured they'd provide a 'good enough' set of numbers to play with for now.

Originally, our ret pal came to me saying how stupid it was that SoR was scaling better and out-damaging both SoC and SoB - it wasn't until I included SoV in the comparison that I realised it did even more damage. My concern is that any move to fix this might hurt prot's DPS/TPS output as a consequence.

Because SoC and SoB are doing damage per proc, and because I was using a 3.8 speed weapon, it roughly comes out to:

SoB: 214 DPS
SoC: 192 DPS
SoR: 320 DPS
SoV: 534 DPS

note: for the first two, I'm using a multiplier of 1.45 to take into acocunt average damage including crits to try and factor that in

[Proudfoot]

Originally, our ret pal came to me saying how stupid it was that SoR was scaling better and out-damaging both SoC and SoB - it wasn't until I included SoV in the comparison that I realised it did even more damage. My concern is that any move to fix this might hurt prot's DPS/TPS output as a consequence.

Because SoC and SoB are doing damage per proc, and because I was using a 3.8 speed weapon, it roughly comes out to:

SoB: 214 DPS
SoC: 192 DPS
SoR: 320 DPS
SoV: 534 DPS

note: for the first two, I'm using a multiplier of 1.45 to take into acocunt average damage including crits to try and factor that in

Wow, SoV should not be anywhere near that high for Ret DPS. Somehow they need to figure out how to make it scale well for Prot/holy but not for Ret.

[Kayoto]

Copy/Pasted from testing on Elitist Jerks, with regards to additional threat caused by HotR and ShoR:

I managed to get my macro posted earlier to work, go figure I had to put "player" and "target" the other way around. It only works if you land your first attack before a mob aggros on you though, and even then it's not entirely certain, so testing is limited to neutral mobs.

Numbers are based on the threat numbers from the macro, which should be Blizzard's own threat numbers. I've rounded the numbers to 1 decimal, rounding up or down to get as close to an appropriate rounded number as possible. The actual in-game numbers I got had 10 decimals. I discarded any data I had from crits, though the numbers I got from those indicates that crits are indeed simply extra damage and simply generate threat as expected from the damage they deal.

Hammer of the Righteous:
94 damage - 112.8 threat
95 damage - 114 threat
96 damage - 115.2 threat
157 damage - 188.4 threat
158 damage - 189.6 threat
159 damage - 190.8 threat

Righteous Fury does not affect Hammer of the Righteous threat at all, but currently Hammer of the Righteous is dealing physical damage, so that's not surprising. Seems like Hammer of the Righteous generates ~20% extra threat on top of what we'd expect. These damage numbers should also not be seen as an idea of what kind of damage the ability does, I was using a level 1 weapon while in my healing gear to minimize the damage dealt by the ability.

Shield of Righteousness:
664 damage - 796.8 threat, 1513.9 threat with Righteous Fury
680 damage - 816 threat, 1550.4 threat with Righteous Fury
734 damage - 880 threat, 1673.5 threat with Righteous Fury
771 damage - 925.2 threat, 1757.9 threat with Righteous Fury

Unfortunately I can't easily get a few small numbers close together with block value like I could by equiping a weak weapon like with Hammer of the Righteous. The numbers indicate however that Shield of Righteousness also generates ~20% extra threat on top of the damage it deals, and that Righteous Fury works multiplicitavely with it.

Some other quick testing indicates that Avenger's Shield also has a 20% extra threat modifier. Exorcism produces threat equal to the damage it deals, both of those are without Righteous Fury. Unfortunately I can't get numbers from the macro for melee attacks, seal procs, judgements, Holy Wrath, Holy Shield, Blessing of Sanctuary, Retribution Aura or Consecration as all of these either require me to be in combat, or trigger neutral mobs to be in combat without it being seen as the first atack.

The macro I used in case anyone wants to test for themselves:

/script local _,_,_,_,e = UnitDetailedThreatSituation("player","target"); DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(e/100)

[PsiVen]

Does SotP affect the Vengeance DoT? I have left it out of this calc for now.

Assume:

Consecration 12% AP and SP per second (Not sure?) << Apparently this isn't accurate. Edges SBV even higher in that case.
No mob avoidance or resistance, hit capped
1 HS charge used per 2 sec
No SotP, 1HWS
Shield Spec, the ShoR increasing talent, Divine Strength, all Stam talents
SoR
Kings
Shield Spec = SBV but not STR-BV
9 second judgements
HotR with a 2.6 speed 1h, AP/SoR for it applies as 2.6 speed
HotR as HOLY damage

By ilvl -> 24 SBV = 18 STA = 12 STR = 14.4 SP = 24 AP (these may not be exact)

Talented/buffed -> 31.2 SBV (33.6 w/ 10% meta) = 22.68 STA = 15 STR = 14.4 SP = 24 AP

SBV adds 163.61 TPC -> 27.27 TPS to ShoR (176.20 -> 29.37)

STA translates to 6.80 spell power, adding:
1.29 TPS to SoR
1.20 TPS to HS
1.55 TPS to Cons
1.05 TPS to JoR
0.56 TPS to HotR (due to SoR)
0.00 TPS to ShoR
= 5.65 TPS total

SP adds 5.65 * 14.4/6.8 = 11.96 TPS

STR translates to 30 AP + 7.5 SBV, adding:
2.85 TPS to SoR
0.00 TPS to HS
6.84 TPS to Cons
2.85 TPS to JoR
2.12 TPS to HotR
6.56 TPS to ShoR
2.14 TPS to Autoattack
= 23.36 TPS total with SoR

6.65 TPS to SoV
3.42 TPS to JoV
= 27.73 TPS total with SoV

AP adds STR's contribution minus ShoR * 24/30 = 16.93 TPS

Summary of Single Target Threat Stats
STR = 100% (baseline)
SBV = 98.3% - 105.9% of Strength depending on meta gem
STR = 88% (without Divine Strength)
SBV = 75.6% of Strength (without Shield Spec)
AP = 61.1% of Strength
SP = 43.1% of Strength
STA = 20.4% of Strength

TLDR
Keep your autoblocker.


Edit: Forgot about autoattack threat.

[Nich]

Originally, our ret pal came to me saying how stupid it was that SoR was scaling better and out-damaging both SoC and SoB - it wasn't until I included SoV in the comparison that I realised it did even more damage. My concern is that any move to fix this might hurt prot's DPS/TPS output as a consequence.

Because SoC and SoB are doing damage per proc, and because I was using a 3.8 speed weapon, it roughly comes out to:

SoB: 214 DPS
SoC: 192 DPS
SoR: 320 DPS
SoV: 534 DPS

note: for the first two, I'm using a multiplier of 1.45 to take into acocunt average damage including crits to try and factor that in

Wow, SoV should not be anywhere near that high for Ret DPS. Somehow they need to figure out how to make it scale well for Prot/holy but not for Ret.

Check http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t28560-pala ... post850094 for something tha'ts probably a lot more comprehensive (and without mistakes) than my math.

[Widdox]

New question...


Does HOTR break sheep?

[PsiVen]

Yes, at least, it breaks freezing trap. And so does the resulting Vengeance DoT

[Equitas]

New question...


Does HOTR break sheep?

Worldie said it does not break cc

[Worldie]

Hey Dorv, i got some answers for you

-- With Heart of the Crusader and 3 paladins in a raid, can each one spec into HotC and judge a different ability, Justice, Wisdom, Light and get 9% raid crit?
No, the Heart of Crusader is a added debuff (differently from now on live where it just adds a effect to the judgement), and it does not stack. There's only one Heart of Crusader on the mob even with multiple judgements

-- What are the mana efficiencies of our threat moves: baseline? with a typical set of level 70/75/80 gear?
I can speak until level 75 due to 77 level cap. The current idea is that assuming you pull 1 pack per time, you can use one or two consecration max, rest you can deal with judgements, HotR and ShoR

-- Does Holy shield still count as a magical buff in wotlk?
Yes, it's still a magical buff

-- Seeing as Hotr hits 4 targets, if you judge several targets, can you refresh the judgements on all of them with Hotr?
No, it doesn't refresh any judgement. Actually, refreshing judgement has been removed, you can only refresh them by rejudging