Jayson's BiS Guide Discussion Thread

[MrDuck]

This is a guide that was originally posted at TankSpot.com and is now stickied there with the BiS tanking guides in the Gearing and Enchanting forum. The link to the guide and its discussion on TS is below. I've placed the whole body of the guide here on MTadin per a request by Lieris. I am basically just copy/pasting from the Tankspot thread, so if something seems to be out of context, it probably is.

Best in slot! Paladin tanking gear at a glance.

Thanks for the support!


I. Introduction
II. The 25man List
III. The 10man List
IV. Reserved


I. Introduction
Halandir has finally bugged me enough to get me to create this list. If you are wondering who Halandir is, you can view his Warrior BiS guide here. Basically, what this list is going to do is break down what pieces are best for the Paladin in each of several roles (i.e. several different sets). When you get a BiS piece for given set, the idea is to gem it to that strength, so rather then having every single piece with full Stam gems, the Tempered Titansteel Helm (for example) you would want a Stam Meta and a Solid gem in to complement the EH strength. Then Thane's Tainted Greathelm you would probably put the Def Meta and a Thick/Enduring gem in as it is a pure avoidance piece at the top end.

I'll be using Hal's guide as a template (because I'm too lazy to try and be creative) so it should look fairly similar to his. Also, this thread by Petrus was used as reference to find many of the pieces rather than filtering Wowhead for plate defense gear.


Legend
EH = Effective Health set (Please realize that armor only helps EH, not M(agic)EH, consider building a pure-stam gear set for MEH fights.)
AV = Avoidance (Miss, Dodge, Parry)
T = Threat (Strength, Hit, Block Value, Expertise, in that order. Yes... expertise sucks for Paladins. Check here to see that mapped out. [Updated! tables for Prot TPS/DPS are here.] Thanks to Theck for the great work.)
B = Block set (BV/BR)

For the threat set, please check this post to see some discussion on the logic behind these choices (I recommend getting Hit capped even prior to really focusing on Strength).

If you are looking to build an Unhittable set as listed in the Warriors' guide, feel free to put Lavanthor's Talisman on as well as a few Block Rating pieces in your Avoidance set and call it good. Yay! for Holy Shield.

Another tag you will see on some of the pieces is a MT tag. What this means is I recommend this piece for general boss main-tanking. It perhaps has the best spread of stats or is the best "overall" survivability, just my suggestion. Also, if 2 pieces are tied for top EH and I think one is the better MT piece, I put my Stam gems/enchants on it even if it might be a great avoidance/threat piece and throw it into my MT set.

Of Note: – If you see a piece with this before it, the piece is not BiS for any one role, but may be a great back up or a piece with some of everything.


Disclaimer
This gear list was compiled "at a glance." I haven't done a lot of math or set up formulas for my "best in slot" picks, but merely compared the top pieces of gear in each slot to determine what set to put it in. If you don't like my choices, take the gearing-set principles with you and make your own decision.


II. The 25man List

I'll not be posting drop locations, click on any of the links to see where it drops (as listed by Wowhead).

Head

EH/AV/MT - Helm of the Faceless: Best avoidance, Strength, and tied at top Stamina. Great piece.
AV/B - Conqueror’s Aegis Faceguard: Good avoidance, tied for top Stam, Block Rating. Consider MTing this piece to help with set bonuses.
T - Valorous Redemption Faceguard: Really no good threat helms discovered thus far in Ulduar. Def/BV meta and gem for threat.

Neck

EH/AV/MT – Bronze Pendant of the Vanir: Best EH, best AV, a socket, and huge strength all combine to make this phenomenal piece BiS. (Note: With a 16 Str gem, these are probably the top Threat piece as well.)
B/T - Necklace of Unerring Mettle: High Str and BV make this nice for threat as well as your Block Set.
Of Note: AV/T - Shard of the Crystal Forest: Nice avoidance plus a bit of hit.

Shoulders

AV/T/MT – Shoulderplates of the Deconstructor: Good avoidance, Hit for threat, and decent Stam give these the MT designation.
B/T – Conqueror’s Aegis Shoulderguards: Block stats (wish they wouldn’t put those on tier gear…). Also the best threat piece available, especially considering the socket.
AV - Valorous Redemption Shoulderguards: Still the best avoidance in slot, switch to an AV gem.

Cloak

EH/T/MT - Titanskin Cloak: Highest Stamina even before the socket, lots of Hit and Expertise, tons of Defense.
AV - Cloak of the Makers: Best avoidance and a bit of Hit. Platinum Mesh all over again, higher iLvl and it would be BiS.
B - Shadow of the Ghoul: No Block cloaks yet discovered in Ulduar.

Chest

AV/MT - Conqueror’s Aegis Breastplate: Top avoidance in slot, great piece. (Note: Expect to see a couple more chest pieces discovered in the next few weeks.)
EH/B/T - Unbreakable Chestguard: Block stats, top Stam, lots of BV for threat. Really a very nice chest, Aegis wins MT tag primarily due to true avoidance and set bonuses.

Wrist

EH/AV/T/MT – Mimiron’s Inferno Couplings: Good avoidance, good EH, and hit make these very nice all around bracers.
EH/AV - Bracers of the Unholy Knight: This piece all depends on how you gem it. Solid makes it top EH, dodge gem makes it best avoidance. It wouldn’t bother me at all to see a Paladin wearing this all through Ulduar, even over Mimiron’s.

Hands

EH/AV/MT - Handguards of Revitalization: Generally BiS by a huge amount with tons more Stamina then any of the other, and best avoidance.
T - Conqueror’s Aegis Handguards: Same threat stats as the block gloves below, but with a socket as well. Also great MT gloves till you get the Revitalization.
B - Handguards of the Enclave: High Strength and BV with BR to boot.
Of Note: AV/T – Gauntlets of the Royal Watch: Good avoidance and Hit, well itemized all around.

Waist

EH/AV/MT – Indestructible Plate Girdle: Best Stamina in slot by a huge amount and strong avoidance both make this the belt to have.
AV/T – Shieldwarder Girdle: May actually be better avoidance than Indestructible depending on your stats, also a solid chunk of Hit to help with threat.
T/B – Dragonslayer’s Brace: Best threat in slot, designed for a Block set.

Legs

EH/AV/MT – Legplates of the Endless Void: Another of the “higher iLvl” BiS pieces. Best avoidance in slot, higher Stam by a long shot.
EH – Saronite Plated Legguards: I don’t know the formula for EH, but I’m sure these top the Endless Void if you are in an extreme physical EH fight.
AV – Conqueror’s Aegis Legguards: 2nd best AV while keeping a decent Stam number and helping with set bonuses.
B/T – Wyrmguard Legplates: Yet another Block piece that functions well for Paladin threat.

Feet

EH/AV/MT – Spiked Deathdealers: Almost seem over itemized for the given iLvl. Potential for tons of Stamina with great avoidance.
AV/T – Charred Saronite Greaves: possible better AV than the Deathdealers as well as lots of Hit.
T/B – Greaves of the Stonewarder: Strength and Block Value serves for either Block or threat set. (Note: Only a slight TPS increase over Naxx’s Inexorable Sabatons.)

Rings

You will notice there are no MT designations in this section. A good tank should switch rings often to match the situation. There are some that may “overall” be better, but the choice is still situational. That being said, I don’t think I will ever take The Leviathan’s Coil off once I get it...

EH – The Leviathan’s Coil and Signet of Winter.
AV – Platinum Band of the Aesir and Signet of Winter. (Note: Sand-Worn Band is still right there with the others and should be considered in your specific gear-set before you vend it.)
T – Signet of the Earthshaker and The Leviathan’s Coil. (Note: Gatekeeper is still solid threat assuming you are under the Hit cap and should be weighted very similarly to The Coil.)
B – Signet of the Earthshaker and Unsmashable Heavy Band are still the only WotLK rings with BV/BR on them.

Trinket

Same as the Ring section, there are no MT designation’s here as you should go through trinkets like a rich kid goes through toys (no offense to the rich kids out there, please keep reading : ]). I personally prefer 1 Stam trinket and 1 (usually avoidance) trinket with a strong (again, usually avoidance) “on use” ability for most situations. That’s a hold-over preference from the BC Commendation/Pocketwatch days.

EH – Heart of Iron and Royal Seal of King Lane.
AV – Repelling Charge is still the top AV trinket in my opinion with the Furnace Stone 2nd. The Furnace Stone beats out the silly General's Heart 25man trinket. With only 2 more dodge rating to try and balance a weaker, uncontrolled proc.
T – Darkmoon Card: Greatness is still the best available trinket for both threat and block value. Battlemaster’s Accuracy is a great piece (for those of you who PvP), with both a ton of hit and a very nice "on use" ability. Grim Toll also has good hit and a slightly useful threat proc. (Note: I have not yet seen great new Threat trinkets, nor have I searched them out at this point.)
B – Lavanthor’s Talisman and Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600/Coren’s Lucky Coin each have their place in a block set depending on your situation. (Note: As stated earlier, Greatness is currently the best trinket for Block Value.)

Shield

EH/B/MT – The Boreal Guard: Best EH, best Block stats, takes the MT designation with 40 more Stamina than the others. (Note: With threat gemming, this would pull ahead of the other shields in this category as well.)
AV – Hero’s Surrender: Still the best avoidance in slot at this time.
T – Northern Barrier: Best threat in slot with the Hit and Expertise on it. (Note: See the note on The Boreal Guard.)
Of Note: AV/B – Wall of Terror: A great shield now with the Stamina change, however, not BiS in any category. Good AV and decent Stamina.

Weapon

The weapon section will be set as a ranking system as Paladin threat is primarily based on weapon DPS. This means that the higher Item Level weapons that generally have more avoidance on them also produce the most threat. Block stats should not be sought at the weapon slot. To see a threat comparison and summary on several Ulduar weapons, see this comparison by Theck.

1. Sorthalis, Hammer of the Watchers is the best threat and avoidance of the available weapons. Yay for high Item Level.
2. Titanguard is the next best overall, with better threat and more avoidance than the Shiver.
3. Shiver has the highest Stamina of the available weapons, but is only a threat side-grade to Last Laugh. (Note: Very versatile with the gem slot here, can be better than Titanguard in a couple of categories depending on this.)
4. Last Laugh our baseline weapon, BiS Naxx-era.




III. The 10man List

I've not yet updated the 10man listing for Ulduar, but I am working on it.

Head

AV/MT – Thane’s Tainted Greathelm: Best helm in game at the 10man level.
T/B – Heroes’ Redemption Faceguard: High BV here for a Threat set.
EH – Tempered Titansteel Helm: Huge EH potential when compared to the other 10man helms available.

Neck

MT – Drakescale Collar: Almost contradicting the theme of this guide, I am going to say that this non-specialized neckpiece is the BiS overall at the 10man level. Good avoidance, top Stam, high un-hittable contribution, all depending on the gemming.
EH – Titanium Earthguard Chain: Armor/Stam, top EH available.
AV/T – Chained Military Gorget: High avoidance, Hit Rating if you are still looking for the cap.
B/T – Medallion of the Disgraced: Decent Strength as well as BR and BV.

Shoulders

EH/AV/MT – Heroes’ Redemption Shoulderguards: Top AV in slot, tied for best EH as well, great piece.
T/AV – Abomination Shoulderblades: Hit Rating, and a gem slot make this a great threat piece with solid avoidance as well.
B – Pauldrons of the Colossus: BR, good Strength, and a gem slot make these nice for a block set.

Cloak

EH/AV/MT – Gale-Proof Cloak: BiS hands down. Top avoidance, top EH, top Stamina, and pseudo-avoidance (Expertise). Sarth +1D is very doable at the 10man gearing level also.
T/EH – Cloak of Armed Strife: Hit cloak. It’s worth mentioning that this is the 2nd highest EH cloak available.
B/T – Tattered Castle Drape: Good Strength and BV make this a decent threat cloak as well as a block cloak.

Chest

EH/T/B/MT – Heroes’ Redemption Breastplate: Best EH, high Strength, Block Rating, and Block Value bring this the MT designation.
AV – Massive Skeletal Ribcage: Best avoidance for Paladins at the 10man level.

Wrist

EH/T/B/MT – Minion Bracers: Best EH, high Strength, great piece.
AV – Bracers of the Herald: Technically a miniscule higher in the avoidance department, basically a slight downgrade from Minion in all cases.
(Note: EH/T/MT – Bracers of Dalaran’s Parapets are purchasable for those of you with gold to spare.)

Hands

EH/T/MT – Heroes’ Redemption Handguards: Top EH (assuming a Solid gem), Hit, and good avoidance. (Note: Gauntlets of the Master are basically the same item with 12 less Stamina, 1 less Hit and 5 more Dodge rating.)
AV – Fireproven Gauntlets: Top avoidance, still strong EH.
B – Refined Ore Gloves: BR here.

Waist

EH/MT – Waistguard of Living Iron: Best Stamina available, great avoidance, and good Strength. I’d recommend gemming Enduring/Solid and using this as a 10man MT belt.
AV – Ancient Aligned Girdle: Great avoidance piece.
B/T – Waistguard of the Tutor: High Strength, Block Rating, and Block Value.

Legs

EH/B/T/MT – Heroes’ Redemption Legguards: Tied for top Stamina, good blocking stats, and high Strength. (Note: Legplates of Inescapable Death are nearly identical with slightly higher Defense at the cost of some Strength. Great in-between piece if you are on the edge of your Def cap.)
AV/T – Bolstered Legplates: The high Defense makes these the best avoidance available in 10man as well as Hit for threat.

Feet

AV/MT – Plague-Impervious Boots: Very nice avoidance piece with decent Stamina to “boot”. (I know, terrible…)
EH – Tempered Titansteel Treads: Top Stam and EH in slot, nothing else.
B/T – Inexorable Sabatons: Great Threat/Block boots, BoE Naxx25 drop can be found in the AH. (Note: There are multiple rare quality boots with Block and Threat stats on them.)

Rings

You will notice there are no MT designations in this section. A good tank should switch rings often to match the situation. There are some that may “overall” be better, but the choice is still situational.

EH – Keystone Great-Ring & Titanium Earthguard Ring. In pure, physical-damage, avoidance-matters-zero situations, Nerubian Shield Ring and Band of Torture come out above the Earthguard.
AV – Titanium Earthguard Ring & Deflection Band.
T - Deflection Band & Unsmashable Heavy Band.
B - Unsmashable Heavy Band is the only current WotLK ring with BV/BR on it.

Trinkets

Same as the Ring section, there are no MT designation’s here as you should go through trinkets like a rich kid goes through toys. I personally prefer 1 Stam trinket and 1 (usually avoidance) trinket with a strong (again, usually avoidance) “on use” ability for most situations. That’s a hold-over preference from the BC Commendation/Pocket Watch days.

EH – Essence of Gossamer and Offering of Sacrifice for the average joe. Figurine - Monarch Crab, Indestructible Alchemist’s Stone, Figurine – Ruby Hare and Sonic Booster listed in order of general tanking “quality” for those of you with these professions. (Note: If you want a second Stamina trinket and have none of the appropriate professions, consider the Commendation of Kael’thas.)
AV - Repelling Charge and Valor Medal of the First War, both with very strong “use” abilities.
T – Darkmoon Card: Greatness is the best available trinket for both threat and block value. Battlemaster’s Accuracy is a great piece (for those of you who PvP), with both a ton of hit and a very nice "on use" ability. Figurine – Twilight Serpent and Sphere of Red Dragon’s Blood each have hit with a moderately useful proc/use threat ability.
B – Lavanthor’s Talisman and Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600/Coren’s Lucky Coin each have their place in a block set depending on your situation.

Shield

EH/AV/MT – Barricade of Eternity: Top EH in slot and best avoidance, highest iLvl piece from 10mans. (Note: In a perfect world, with no DRs, Crygil’s Discarded Plate Panel has .02% more avoidance than the Barricade.)
T – Skull of Ruin has highest total threat potential, Crygil’s Discarded Plate Panel and the Royal Crest of Lordaeron each have Hit Rating in equal amounts.
B - Skull of Ruin: Highest BR and BV in slot.

Weapon

I left weapons for last because I am going to change the format here to a ranking system. The Slayer of the Lifeless currently stands tall above the other weapons for Paladins in two of the three categories: EH, AV, and T (you don't want to look to a weapon for Block stats generally).

1. Slayer of the Lifeless has the best avoidance, best threat, and is only one point behind the Red Sword of Courage in total Stamina.
2. Red Sword of Courage falls behind the Slayer with lower Strength, same DPS, and lower avoidance.
3. Infantry Assault Blade & Cloudstrider’s Waraxe are both viable options for the starting Protection Paladin.

Edited to include original post by Jayson - Barathorn.

Well i've just seen it on TS a while ago, well written and even though i'm not all up for these guides (ya know,everyone likes something else for his stat balance..unless he's mindless:P), it can help when one isnt sure, and even though i thought i know(and have:p) pretty much every drop ingame, i didnt even know about that helm ya listed up there, i think i'll need to add it on my list of items i want (well,there's only last lawl now :/).

[Jayson]

Heh, thanks for the good word. You are right that different people like different pieces, it's not a rule-book to abide by, just a guide to help you along the way.

I do plan to update once Ulduar is release as well. I think that with the addition of more gear, more and more decisions will have to be made. Currently, most gearing choices are fairly simple with the relatively small amount of content currently available. Hopefully this guide will continue to be a help as more content is released.

[Kelaan]

I like that you've noted best for Avoidance, EH, and threat -- as they're not always the same. Petrus' guide does a good job of this but isn't as explicit in its explanation of why A is better than B. Nice job!

[Petrus]

I tend to say "A is better than B" if something is clearly an upgrade overall, with high-avoidance and high-block pieces being listed as sidegrades because of the nature of them. The block piece is not inherently worse and the avoidance piece is not inherently better just because of one thing or another - thus, I listed them as sidegrades.


And I too will be updating my list when 3.1 hits. Would you all like me to add commentary to mine? If so, I am perfectly able and willing to do so.

[Jayson]

Chill Petrus,

This wasn't built as "competition" to yours. It really isn't even the same kind of thing as your guide. You did a comprehensive, near-exhaustive list of tanking gear available in WotLK. I built mine as a counter-guide to one a guildmate (Halandir) did for Warriors, that can be seen here.

The whole point of the guide is encouraging people to build several different sets and demonstrating what pieces might be considered the "best" for each role. Your guide gives an entire listing of what is available, where to find it, and an order of which piece is better for MTing in a progression from bottom to top.

You keep your exhaustive list, I'll keep my multi-set list. I'll use your guide on occasion (as others will) and perhaps my guide can be a help to you on occasion (as it will be for others).

~Jayson

[Jayson]

I like that you've noted best for Avoidance, EH, and threat -- as they're not always the same. Petrus' guide does a good job of this but isn't as explicit in its explanation of why A is better than B. Nice job!

Thanks for the compliment Kelaan, good to know that my guide has been a help.

[Kelaan]

I tend to say "A is better than B" if something is clearly an upgrade overall, with high-avoidance and high-block pieces being listed as sidegrades because of the nature of them.... Would you all like me to add commentary to mine?

Meh; I don't think so. Your guide is excellent too. I like seeing that: "oh look, all 3 of these are a 2 -- I guess I can pass that to someone else that needs it". (what a poor way of wording that. Sorry.) If you were to annotate that one was an EH-centric sidegrade while another was avoidance-centric, that might help, but for the most part it's pretty clear which of the 2 or 3 are suited for what.

I only have issues on things like legs, where it's not always clear what the total stamina will be on some of the socketable ones. {edit: And then, usually it's close enough that I Just Don't Care yet, since our other 3 plate tanks need gear too.}

[Eanin]

I really like it. I like seeing a guild that recognizes that you can't compare screwdrivers and hammers and doesn't try.

My only complaint about it is that it overvalues hit for threat. On a couple of those comparisons, it's just way off on what is the best threat piece.

Otherwise, I really like this guide.

[Jayson]

I really like it. I like seeing a guild that recognizes that you can't compare screwdrivers and hammers and doesn't try.

My only complaint about it is that it overvalues hit for threat. On a couple of those comparisons, it's just way off on what is the best threat piece.

Otherwise, I really like this guide.

I understand that point for point Strength beats out Hit on single targets at our current gear level. But the basic idea with my choices is that right now it is really easy to pick up enough hit pieces to get capped? At that point you then don't have to worry about Avenger's Shield missing on the pull or any of your first HotR/Judgement/SS rotation to miss, letting someone pull off initially.

Another thing to consider is that currently... I can tank any boss fight in any gear-set... and still be 50-75% ahead of the nearest DPS on threat (MTed Patch for the first time in a couple weeks, waiting for the WWS parse to figure out my overall TPS there). So my threat set mainly falls to trash where hit grows even higher in value in comparison to your Str due primarily to SotR single target mechanics.

In our last 10 man Naxx we decided (finally) to focus less on speed and more on safety, going for Undying. When we pulled Stalagg and Feugen, the first four abilities that Halandir (our warrior tank) threw all missed (you'd have to ask him, but I would guess he had somewhere in the range of ~3% miss chance)... Stalagg then took off running down the ramp towards a healer on my side who had hots up, this caused a Tesla Coil overload and the raid wiped... 1 in a million chance, but still... hitting on the pull is key.

Another thing to consider is that currently... I can tank any boss fight in any gear-set... and still be 50-75% ahead of the nearest DPS on threat (MTed Patch for the first time in a couple weeks, waiting for the WWS parse to figure out my overall TPS there). So my threat set mainly falls to trash where hit scales even higher in value when compared to Str due primarily to SotR single target mechanics.

Finally, if you check the TPS stat-graph that I linked from here on MTadin you see that in about the 1800-2000 Str range (I never actually check my character sheet in raid, but I would imagine that is about where we are), hit is starting to to look pretty solid in relation to Strength (again, till cap) so you gain the double benefit of stacking your 2nd best TPS stat as well as having 100% hit ratio on your pull.

Thanks for the comment Eanin, I think I am going to quote you on tankspot for the benefit of viewers there. Let me know if that is a problem for whatever reason and I'll take your name off the quote.

[Barathorn]

I haven't had a chance to look at the Guide yet but I will do asap.

Thanks for taking the time to write it and link it here.

Barathorn

[Jayson]

I haven't had a chance to look at the Guide yet but I will do asap.

Thanks for taking the time to write it and link it here.

Barathorn

Thanks man. I appreciate the Maintankadin site alot and figured it might be useful to some here. If you would rather I re-post here instead of just having the Tankspot link, I can do that. Wasn't sure if having a link to another site-guide would be at all a no-no.

[theckhd]

Just for reference:
I just cranked out updated graphs, which now include a more complete picture of the rating differences. If I get some time I'll try and add Armor Penetration as well.

Also, the plots are vs. unbuffed character sheet strength, which should be between 1200 and 1400 for an end-game geared tank.

However, the results are still the same - STR > Hit > BV > AP > Expertise for threat in that range.

[Lieris]

Tankspot is pretty much a sister site to Maintankadin, I don't think anyone objects to you linking your guide but I think it's best if you reproduce it verbatim in your opening post to this thread.

As for the guide itself it's pretty much spot on but the problem with best in slot guides is it assumes access to all items in game which is not a luxury most people have and if you do you probably do not need to be told the strengths of such and such item. I tend to prefer the standard boss tanking progression guides because of that with clear cut upgrades ranked higher and similar items with different strengths ranked equally which is the approach I took to my old TBC guide.

[Eanin]

I totally agree with you on the utility of +hit. I routinely get burned at the stake around here for holding that same position.

The question, really, is what is meant by "maximizing threat". I took it to mean, "maximizing tps", but it seems you mean something like "maximizing threat, including both tps and snap". Strength is a much better tps stat, while hit is an infinitely better snap threat stat.

Snap threat and tps are a little different, so you should probably make that distinction somewhere in your guide so people know what you're doing. Even as maintankadin's hugest proponent of +hit, I didn't realise what you meant .

Yes, you are welcome to quote me, but please correct the typo where I said "guild" instead of "guide" .

[theckhd]

Strength is a much better tps stat, while hit is an infinitely better snap threat stat.

Until you hit the hit cap, of course.

To be more verbose, Strength is still a better "snap threat" stat, in that point per point STR gives you more average snap aggro than Hit.

But hit makes your snap threat more reliable, which is often far more important. 20 extra average damage on your ability won't often make the difference between "aggro" and "no aggro", but a miss definitely will.

And yes, I realize that me saying this as a reply to Eanin is akin to a small-town Friar elucidating the finer points of the latest papal bull to the Pope himself, but this post wasn't meant to imply that he didn't already know everything I just said.


Oh, also, I almost forgot: I added Armor Penetration to the plots. It performs surprisingly well for DPS, less so for TPS. It's worse than Expertise in all cases though.